5
upgraded Smartermail from 8629 to 8972
Question asked by Miguel Enrique - 7/31/2024 at 10:39 AM
Unanswered
This past weekend I upgraded Smartermail from 8629 to 8972.

This week I'm getting complaints from some users that the recipients of some of their messages are unable to view embedded images or attachments. They are not new recipients and just on Friday everything was working fine and on Monday they started receiving emails from their recipients complaining.

Examples:
- An email with an attachment with a CSV extension, the recipient sees it without the attachment and with the text of the file in the same email.
- In another email sent with an attachment the recipient does not see the name of the attachment and instead it says "File attached to the message".

35 Replies

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0
Kyle Kerst Replied
Employee Post
Are the affected messages being sent out via webmail or through an email client the user has connected to the account? If they're being sent via a client, what version is it and what sync protocol are those users leveraging? Attachment handling can vary quite a bit depending on the client so these details will help narrow down the source of the problem. Thanks!
Kyle Kerst IT Coordinator SmarterTools Inc. www.smartertools.com
1
Miguel Enrique Replied
Hello Kyle.

I think your colleague Jorel Haggard has opened a ticket for me, to which I have already responded with an example from Gmail to WebMail.

Clearly there is a problem if the message does not comply 100% with the RFC standards, but this did not happen before and with the latest version I am receiving complaints.
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Kyle Kerst Replied
Employee Post
That makes sense Miguel, and we appreciate you working with support to get to the bottom of this. 
Kyle Kerst IT Coordinator SmarterTools Inc. www.smartertools.com
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Brian A. Replied
I have the same issue... primarily with PDF files sent from a Toshiba copier. PDFs sent from the copier to email addresses within SmarterMail are fine, but email addresses to outside servers get the PDF renamed to attachment.bin

This started with either the July 24/25 updates.
0
Jay Dubb Replied
@Brian A -- this is exactly what our customers are reporting, also.  Scan-to-PDF on their large copiers, sent by email, recipient receives an attachment that has no file extension or in some cases something random like dot-123, and in many cases garbage for the file name either appearing blank or "undefined".  We were pulling our hair out on why, because we reverted SM back to 8930.... but forgot our outbound gateway is still on 8972.  Mystery solved.  
 
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Brian A. Replied
@jay Dubb -- I had to change my outgoing server for the copier to Yahoo for now...
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Brian A. Replied
This is getting to be a real problem. Multiple users are saying that their attachments are getting screwed up, and the recipients can't open them.

In addition to the Toshiba copier, I've got a payroll program that uses an Outlook profile to send paystubs... those attachments get changed to "mime-attachment".

Also, Adobe Acrobat uses the Outlook profile when sending a .PDF as an attachment, and those get renamed too.
3
Jay Dubb Replied
@Brian A - sounds like it's time to revert to 8930.  After reverting from 8965 to 8930, we're sticking with 8930 until we see plenty of forum posts confirming (some future build) resolves all problems and is safe.  After the mushroom cloud that blew sky-high after 8965, and the continuing problems with the builds that came after it, our admin said we are done with what amounts to being beta testers on a production server.
 
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Miguel Enrique Replied
I'm in the same boat. One client is having real problems because he uses an application that sends emails with the correct attachments to each recipient. Since the change, there have been only complaints. Other clients have also told us that when forwarding emails, the attachments disappear. Honestly, I haven't dared to go back to a previous version because the technical service told me that it wasn't safe to do so. I have an open ticket about this problem, but it's difficult to document. Clearly the problem must be that the emails are not 100% compatible with mime, but SmarterMail must be changing something instead of simply adding lines to the header.
1
Brian Bjerring-Jensen Replied
Go back to 8930.... its not a problem
2
Sébastien Riccio Replied
I haven't dared to go back to a previous version because the technical service told me that it wasn't safe to do so
Usually when it's not safe to downgrade to a previous version they add a warning in the release changelog. Not sure if they are still doing it though.
Anyway what would be the other alternatives, restoring a full backup server backup dating from pre-upgrade, and losing all new content received since the backup date ?

Since we upgraded to 8965, 8971, 8972, 8979 we had multiple customers tickets per day about issues on our mail service. Since I downgraded to 8930, everything went back to "normal"....

We received a custom build that should fixes the mail corruption we have, but to be honest I'm not confident to try it now. 
What if the issues are back with this build. Our customers will ask us if we're really serious. 
Also we need to apply the updates in the middle of the night, we can't interrupt the service during the day.
It's friday, I don't want to spend the weekend monitoring the server for issues and having to maybe downgrade again.  I've spend way too much time on this recently.

Maybe it'll be better for us to wait "egoisticaly" that others having the same issues tries it first...

Kind regards
Sébastien Riccio System & Network Admin https://swisscenter.com
0
Brian A. Replied
I opened a support ticket. However, SmarterTools says we are out of luck because they can't replicate. They say live with it because downgrading is not recommended. 🤦‍♂️
1
Zach Sylvester Replied
Employee Post
Hey Sebastian, we just had someone get back to us about the custom build and they said things are working much better now. What we discovered was that it seems when using domain aliases it would create two instances of the mailbox in memory which would then need to be merged and that's where the corruption was happening. So, I recommend you give it a shot. We have been working relentlessly to try and solve this issue and this seems to be the solution. 
Zach Sylvester Software Developer SmarterTools Inc. www.smartertools.com
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Sébastien Riccio Replied
Hello Zach,

Hmmm, that's good to know. It seems to make sense and I'm a bit more confident that it should now be fixed.
I'll maybe give it a try this weekend afterall.

Question: It was creaing two instances of the mailboxes in memory. Is it regardless of the number of aliases existing for the domain ? I mean if the domain had 10 aliases, would it create 11 instances ?

I think I have to review all our customer mailboxes for issues, for those having at least one domain alias.

Kind regards.
Sébastien Riccio System & Network Admin https://swisscenter.com
0
Brian A. Replied
Can I try the "Custom Build"? Thanks, Brian
6
I have 6 SmarterMail servers. I tried to upgrade 4 of these (the smaller ones, all with less than 200 users...) to the new 8979.

EVERYONE (without exception) has had MAJOR blocking issues, from MAPI not syncing to having a completely corrupt domain or two stored (I recovered from backup...).

ALL stopped having problems immediately after downgrading to v.8930.

For now I'm not moving from here...
FULSTOP

Gabriele Maoret - Head of SysAdmins at SERSIS Currently manages 6 SmarterMail installations (1 in the cloud for SERSIS which provides services to a few hundred third-party email domains + 5 on-premise for customers who prefer to have their mail server in-house)
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Miguel Enrique Replied
All my domains have some aliases created, but the problem does not occur in the alias accounts, so I think that what has been fixed should not be the source of the problem with incorrect attachments. The latest version 8979 did not solve the attachment problem. Honestly, I have already received too many complaints from several clients and I assume that if I do not fix the problem this week they will change their email provider. Can technical support clarify whether it is possible to revert to version 8930 without problems?
2
Sébastien Riccio Replied
The custom build seems to have fixed the mail corruption that happens when a domain has domain aliases and I guess when the domain is receiving mail through their different domain aliases and/or when the users of the domains logs in using the domain alias.

This SEEMS to be fixed in custom build we received.

However the other issues doesn't seems to be resolved. I don't know about the attachment issue, I have yet to experience this one. Still for example there are mails to be remotely delivered that are stuck in queue and throw an exception in the delivery log.

On our setup these mails are sent by a customer copier when they scan documents. It was perfectly working with build 8930.

I suspect this is an issue introduced by the added SMTPUTF8 support (that we unfortunately can't disable in SmarterMail. but you can do it in every other MTAs... please add a toggle for this).
Sébastien Riccio System & Network Admin https://swisscenter.com
4
Heimir Eidskrem Replied
Smartermail needs to do a better job with the upgrades.
There are no reason we should have versions that adds so many problems that the users goes "FULLSTOP" with updates.  We will not be a part of another beta test due to the way Smarter mail handled that and we are running way behind on updates since so many of them are bad.

This thing about MAPI is so great from smartermail is just wrong.  Not a single client cares about the protocol only how it works and so far MAPI has been a huge disappointment for our clients.  Every single one of them that we implement asked to be taken off MAP and use IMAP instead due to problems.

Our maintenance contract is up for renewal and we are debating why we should pay for MAPI.   so far its been so many problems, our clients does not want it so why should we pay for it.  It seems to be Smartertools 'flagship" but its been  huge dispointment.  We did a full demo for a client hopeing to move them to Smartermail MAPI but they said hell no. its not even close to be like Exhange.  Maybe the latest version works more like exhange but with the amount of complaints there are no way we will upgrade.  We rather just sell Exchange that works.


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Miguel Enrique Replied
Because of the problems I'm having with attachments, and because of the comments I've read about sending emails directly from scanners, I'm convinced that SmarterMail is manipulating the original message and if it doesn't comply with RFC standards 100%, the headers of each MIME are changed in the message. A mail server should not modify an email and should only add lines to its header. I already have a client who has asked me to transfer all his accounts to Gmail and I understand him. I can't leave a client without service for 15 days without giving him a solution. Although I know that the technical service is trying hard to find solutions, I think that the changes made are a big mistake. I'm waiting for a reply to a ticket to confirm that I won't have problems if I change to version 8930. I don't see any other solution.
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Tim Uzzanti Replied
Employee Post
Miguel,

The attachment issue is because the MIME is jacked and in some cases an attachment has no file names or extensions.  We attempt to send improve how these attachments look when we send them to a client and/or in webmail, but no changes are made to the original message because it would break signing.  

If you ever see Attachment1 or Attachment2 for example, that is a scenario where the MIME there is an issue with the message and when we attempt to present it nicely. 

There is a customer on the community who has a Toshiba printer creating mailformed messages and has been a good test case. 
Tim Uzzanti CEO SmarterTools Inc. www.smartertools.com
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Miguel Enrique Replied
I understand what you mean, but with the client that I can test, the only change that was made on a Sunday was the version of SmarterMail. On Friday everything worked without problems (v.8629) and on Monday everything was complaints (v.8972). I'm not saying that the original message was incorrectly assembled because it was done with an application, but "someone" changes the message that the recipients receive and this change was not made with the previous version. Version 8979 has not solved the problem. I will try tonight with version 8986.
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Tim Uzzanti Replied
Employee Post
Dear Miguel,

We have provided several customers with a Custom Build that has resolved a few different issues. We plan to release a build this week that will include this change and will also solve a couple other topics that have been discussed in the community.

A lot of our time is unfortunately spent troubleshooting issues with clients' mail servers or devices, and many times they do not comply with RFCs, cause malformed data, have bugs, etc. Whenever we rewrite major areas, we try to include all changes we have made over the years for these specific clients, servers, and devices.

For these reasons, we really encourage customers to participate in our BETA's if they want to guarantee a seamless upgrade once we go into production. Some customers who had issues (and have been vocal in the community) did not participate in the BETA, but the companies (including some large ones) who did participate had no issues at all and were seeing well over a million mailboxes on our Windows/Linux release.

We work with a number of large companies ourselves, and they all deal with all these same issues and have all the same bugs. We work really closely with Apple and they do a lot of testing in our labs. We have quality meetings to ensure issues on both sides don't slip through the cracks. This is not an easy business, it's constantly changing and everything our product communicates with, we don't control. 

We understand bugs suck, but many times we're not fixing bugs that we caused. We are often accommodating something we shouldn't need to accommodate because it's been introduced by a change in some other product or service. The noise in the community and people complaining for the sake of complaining and/or diminishing our efforts is disappointing. We pride ourselves on being VERY available and our response times are usually measured in hours with support. There are times when we can provide a custom build in a day, depending on the issue. That level of service just doesn't exist today and it's a little frustrating to see all the noise in the community when we're here trying to solve problems because that is what I would want if I was a customer.

There was a post in one of the threads that they're going back to Exchange.  Exchange has a million issues these days because it hasn't been updated and Microsoft does not intend to release on-premise moving forward.  

Anyway, I'm done with my rant. If you're interested in a custom build, please request one with support.
Tim Uzzanti CEO SmarterTools Inc. www.smartertools.com
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Miguel Enrique Replied
Hi Tim.

I am a programmer too and I understand what you are saying. I have always said that I know that SmarterMail's technical support tries to do a good job, but this time I think they have taken the wrong approach. What I do know is that previously SmarterMail analyzed the email for its internal antispam, antivirus, ..., but it did NOT rewrite the email. Without knowing exactly what SmarteMail does with the emails, I suppose that with the new versions, the email is rewritten and this is where the problem must be. If the MIME structure and its headers are not 100% compatible with the RFC standards, it is not returning the same email that it receives to the destination server and from here the problems arise. Possibly due to implementing SMTPUTF8. If this approach is taken, I think it is a mistake, since a mail server should not modify the message and only add lines to the header.
Maybe I'm wrong and the error is due to another reason, but seeing what's happening, that's the only case that comes to mind.
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Matt Petty Replied
Employee Post
We don't modify the message. There are rare circumstances where we will as it enters the mailbox for the user, long after it's passed through the spool. I think what your seeing is our "multiple mailbox" issue or our attachments issue that we will have fixes for in our next release. Some customers already have the custom build and reporting better behavior, I think sebastien is still having an issue with printer/scanner devices with their attachments and we're actively looking into it right now.

PS: That rare scenario is when mac mail sends a message it uses an ancient email format that involved stitching multiple text bodies together. We stitch them together to make a "normal" email that other clients for sure wont have issues with and it de-complicates the message. We ONLY modify the version that lands in the local user's mailbox. We never modify the email any other time besides adding headers.
Matt Petty Software Developer SmarterTools Inc. www.smartertools.com
3
Jay Dubb Replied
@Tim Uzzanti - I wanted to circle back to the talk of beta testing for a moment.  First-- we love Smartermail.  Our company owner first began using it in 2006 with version 3.x and it's been in production ever since.  Now with that said, while we are interested in beta testing opportunities, realistically speaking, we have no practical way of hosting that.  Sure, we could spin up a VM and play around with it to see what breaks, but the reality is nothing is going to fully or adequately simulate a live production environment and all the variables (clients, protocols, methods of access) plus the raw messages themselves.

It's not until we take a new build and (on rare occasions) get burned, that we-- or SmarterTools-- even knows the problem exists.  We open a ticket, send in whatever diagnostics, logs, config-only backups, and/or direct access to mailboxes by ST Support, that the trouble is reproduced and sent to the developers for a fix. Meanwhile, our affected users suffer.  Our largest mail client is one of the oldest and largest franchisees of their (very well-known) brand in the world; so influential in fact, that they are one of the tails that wag the dog in that brand's global decisionmaking.  If there's a bug in SM, that customer is almost always the first to discover and report it to us.  And in some cases it's work-stopping for the affected users, who live and die by email.  (for example, the MAPI bug in 8965 that caused Outlook to stop syncing)

Where I'm going with that is, it's not always possible to participate in the beta, at least not to the extent that it would take to expose bugs before the new build rolls out for production use.  So I'm not on-board with the (implied) notion that if we don't participate in beta testing, that we're not doing our part.
 
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Tim Uzzanti Replied
Employee Post

How can we simulate millions of users, servers, and client experiences if you can’t simulate your own experience? 

Maybe having a second server with a single domain and/or a lab for testing based on your past experiences that have caused you issues would help?

We have a responsibility but you have a responsibly as well.  For example, we never install Windows or Linux updates / patches without throughly testing them on as many environments as we can.  We also have different levels of uptime throughout our infrastructure and start bottom up.  

From a SmarterTools perspective, we offer weeks (if not months) notice about BETA's that we will be releasing so that companies can plan accordingly.  BETAs themselves often last months so that testing can be planned.  We often reach out to customers who have had an issue and let them know it's resolved in a BETA so they can test it.  We put a lot of work in communicating with our customers so that efforts can be made so that success for all can be achieved. 

If you choose to test a production release, we offer a pretty fantastic level of support that often respond within hours.  It doesn’t mean we can diagnose the problem immediately because in most cases, we can't replicate the issues because each of your environments are unique as our the servers and clients that your severs are connecting with.

We use products from nearly 100 companies, and not one of them provides the level of service and support that we do. I can think of two companies we use that has a CEO who is intimately involved in the products and actively works with its customers. Very few of them provide custom builds to fix issues and/or release on the intervals we do so that customers get fixed as soon as possible. (Which is logistically difficult, but we believe crucial.)

At some point, you need to evaluate your approach rather than blaming the company you use.  That’s not to say we don’t miss the boat sometimes, and we will take responsibility. But we also work hard and also give 100% to ensure our customers receive the best possible level of service no matter the approach they take. 

Everything we do is an effort to create win/win scenarios, even at the expense of our profitability. We genuinely care about our customers' experiences, which is why we will stick up for ourselves. My employees work hard for the right reasons, and a customer’s tone impacts our well-being. A company that operates with a sense of pride about their product, and that can back it up, is the type of company we want to work with, and they’re hard to find.

We had a few people spamming stuff throughout the community and it’s caused a lot of noise and customers had been downgrading when they just have a configuration issue, etc. Helping the handful of customers having issues became much more difficult because some customers decided they wanted to vent in the community, which just caused more noise and confusion. Any customer who impacts the ability for other customers to have success, we will tell them to no longer use our products or we will remove them from the community. 

We hope customers appreciate the efforts we make and we will take responsibility for our issues and we will do what we can to cure those issues which I think we have demonstrated over and over against since our inception. We had a few bugs in a MASSIVE release that was once Windows only but is now Linux.  The issues affected a handful of customers but those customers who had worked with us during the BETA or tested our production release and / or waited for a fix they reported are having fantastic experiences.

We are truly here to help and we would love for our customers to interact with us in the most proactive way possible so we can prevent issues and instead of cure issues!

Tim Uzzanti CEO SmarterTools Inc. www.smartertools.com
4
Sébastien Riccio Replied
Build 8986 (we really should have downgraded to 8930 again)

A lot of mails are stuck in spool for different new reasons. These issues were inexistant in 8930.

Exception: Object is not an instance of whatever

We have a ticket opened for this, but no solution provided yet. Our customers can't send mail to some of their recipients, or can't receive them. Even local deliveries trigger exceptions in delivery log.

This is a huge mess again.
Sébastien Riccio System & Network Admin https://swisscenter.com
0
Brian A. Replied
@Sébastien I'm using 8986, but I don't have any issue with emails getting stuck in the spool.
My volume is about 2600 emails/day, and I have none stuck. I've been on 8986 for about 2 days.

I did actually restart the server after the update. I know it makes you acknowledge that a restart is needed, but it never acutally prompts for a restart... so I don't always do it as I've never had any trouble without restarting.

I'm on Server 2022 with updates through 2024-07.
0
8986 is not available on the download page. Is that a beta build??
0
Zach Sylvester Replied
Employee Post
Hi Sébastien,

I’m sorry to hear that you’ve encountered issues with the custom build. I’ve reviewed your server details through the ticket you submitted, and I wanted to let you know that we're actively working to replicate and resolve this issue in-house.

Based on our initial findings, it seems that the affected users have one common factor: they’ve run out of disk space. We’re creating a dedicated ticket for this specific issue so that we can keep you updated as we work on a solution.

Thank you for your patience, and we’ll keep you in the loop as we make progress.

Kind regards,

Zach Sylvester Software Developer SmarterTools Inc. www.smartertools.com
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Sébastien Riccio Replied
You're lucky Brian A:

Another example, we have mail stuck in spool because one of the local recipient's mailbox is full... but the error is ambigous.

Error: FailedAllAttempts, if i check the target mailbox (local), it is full but the error message is wrong.
Also it  seems it's blocking the other recipients (remote deliveries) which stays on pending...


And the spool is LOOPING hard, more than once on this delivery attempts, every second:

[2024.08.14] 08:19:02.996 [27287545] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:06.003 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:06.005 [27287545] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:09.024 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:09.026 [27287545] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:12.088 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:12.089 [27287545] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:15.094 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:15.097 [27287545] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:18.103 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:18.106 [27287545] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:21.113 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:21.117 [27287545] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:24.130 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:24.134 [27287545] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:27.166 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:27.168 [27287545] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 08:19:30.181 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld


And If I check one of the delivery attempt session:

[2024.08.14] 13:49:31.474 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 13:49:31.474 [27231848] Exception: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
[2024.08.14] 13:49:31.474 [27231848] Local delivery message bounced; too many tries
[2024.08.14] 13:49:31.474 [27231848] Removed from LocalDeliveryQueue (5 queued or processing)
[2024.08.14] 13:49:34.473 [27231848] Added to LocalDeliveryQueue (0 queued; 8/150 processing)
[2024.08.14] 13:49:34.473 [27231848] [LocalDeliveryQueue] Begin Processing.
[2024.08.14] 13:49:34.478 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 13:49:34.479 [27231848] Exception: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
[2024.08.14] 13:49:34.479 [27231848] Local delivery message bounced; too many tries
[2024.08.14] 13:49:34.479 [27231848] Removed from LocalDeliveryQueue (4 queued or processing)
[2024.08.14] 13:49:37.500 [27231848] Added to LocalDeliveryQueue (0 queued; 12/150 processing)
[2024.08.14] 13:49:37.500 [27231848] [LocalDeliveryQueue] Begin Processing.
[2024.08.14] 13:49:37.505 [27231848] Starting local delivery to bogus.full@localmailbox.tld
[2024.08.14] 13:49:37.505 [27231848] Exception: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
[2024.08.14] 13:49:37.505 [27231848] Local delivery message bounced; too many tries
[2024.08.14] 13:49:37.505 [27231848] Removed from LocalDeliveryQueue (9 queued or processing)
[2024.08.14] 13:49:40.508 [27231848] Added to LocalDeliveryQueue (0 queued; 9/150 processing)

I'm almost sure it's because the target mailbox is full... but this seems wrongly handled.

We also have other delivery issues where the error is "Error: 0", again with excpetion in the delivery logs.
Sébastien Riccio System & Network Admin https://swisscenter.com
1
Sébastien Riccio Replied
8986 is not available on the download page. Is that a beta build??
It's a custom build that was sent to us to fix (at least) a mailbox corruption issue for domains having domain aliases that were loaded multiple times in memory and caussing corruption
Sébastien Riccio System & Network Admin https://swisscenter.com
2
Kyle Kerst Replied
Employee Post
We have a fix for the spool issue in this weeks release.  It also has a few other fixes that have been discussed in the community which affected some people.  
Kyle Kerst IT Coordinator SmarterTools Inc. www.smartertools.com
1
Miguel Enrique Replied
I have the 8986 update working and no one has complained yet, but most of my clients are on vacation for 15 days this week. This week I see that the server is processing about 8000 messages a day instead of the 25000 it normally processes.
I am glad to hear that the messages are not modified, that you have located the problem with the attachments and are trying to solve it.
Regarding the problem of errors in the updates, it is something that we will have to accept. I am also a programmer and I know that the important thing is that the problems are solved. I have been using SmarterMail since version 2.0 or 3.0 (I don't even remember) and every time I have had a problem it has been solved quickly. This time it has been a bit more delicate because I feel powerless in the face of customer complaints. I am sorry that some comments may be misinterpreted.

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