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Subscribers removed from mailing list - How to know the reason ?
Problem reported by Sébastien Riccio - 9/24/2020 at 1:25 AM
Not A Problem
Hello,

Some customers (multiple) are reporting that they keep on re-adding subscribers to their mailing list as they disappear.
I think that there was already a topic about this that I'm not able to find anymore so i'll reopen one.

I had also read somewhere that enabling debug 7531499 will help troubleshoot this but unfortunately it doesn''t.

- The reason of the removal (manual unsubscribe? removed because of bounce ? etc...) is not reported to this log and I can't find a related log entry in other logs.
- The domain name of the mailing list is not reported in this log, only the list name, so it's almost useless as we have to guess which is the affected domain.


Can we please have a way to understand why our customers keep on having mailing list users removed. They claim it's not a manual unsubscribe either from their members or themselves and we have not info in the logs to address the issue...

Kind regards

Sébastien Riccio
System & Network Admin

13 Replies

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3
echoDreamz Replied
I've been asking for this for a while now... We have customers who saying that addresses are removed, and no one knows why, wasnt a manual unsub, wasnt done by anyone who has admin access, they just vanish.

Would be great if it said why like "Unsub Link" or "Bounce Threshold" or "API" or "Admin Removed" or something to at least give us a spot to start at.

Also would be great if SM did more logging that the customer could see into without having to contact us. Show a list of unsubed users and the reason next to it with the date/time.
0
Employee Replied
Employee Post
Does the mailing list log not show anything?  Below are a few examples of how a subscriber is removed and what the log would show.  The mailing list log must be set to Normal or Detailed.

Mailing list administrator removes the subscriber:
{TheMailingList}: Unsubscribed {subscriber email address} - From web interface

Subscriber clicks on the UNSUBSCRIBE link:
{TheMailingList}: Unsubscribed {subscriber email address} - Received unsubscribe email

The subscriber email address returns too many bounces:
{TheMailingList}: Unsubscribed {subscriber email address} - Bounces={num of bounces}

With debug log 7531499 enabled, you should get the following unsubscribed messages (API level):
~/api/v1/settings/domain/mailing-lists/{mailingListId}/subscriber-remove
Subscribers {email addresses} were unsubscribed from the list: {list name}

~/api/v1/settings/domain/mailing-lists/{mailingListId}/subscriber-removal-all
All subscribers were unsubscribed from the list: {list name}
0
Sébastien Riccio Replied
Hello Robert,

No, there is nothing in the log about the users that are removed from the list.

Also  (I already explained this in the original post)
- In the 7531499 debug log the domain name is missing from the list {list name} and it's kinda annoying when multiple lists with the same name exists in different domains, like common ones for example "news".

- In the detailed Mailing list log, the Subscriber address is not the real address, it's  "<newsletter_name>-<randomstring>@<domain>" 

Exemple for a bounce increment:
[2020.09.23] 10:58:11.538 [27172568] list@domainch: Bounce received - Recipient Address: list-7ac40e20956c438496b9de328c732a8f@domain.ch; incrementing bounce count

For this exemple, to get the real address, I tried to grep this random id in the mailing list subscribers json files but without success.

But other than that I wasn't able to find any corresponding log entries for our customer disappearing subscribers. It just vanishes every few days and he has to re-add them.

NOTE: This issue is secondary, please can we focus on the introduced IMAP issues first ?
Thank you Robert.

Sébastien Riccio
System & Network Admin

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Sébastien Riccio Replied
Hello,

After digging a bit more the detailed mailing list log, I've found entries for removals due to bounce

I was not finding them because I was originally searching the log for the mailing list domain name
As the mailing list domain name is not reported on the line but only the mailing list name it doesn't help much when you're looking for all unsubscribes for a given domain.

[2020.09.23] 18:47:21.844 risks: Unsubscribed xxx@xyz.ru - Bounces=2
[2020.09.24] 13:56:31.414 comite: Unsubscribed xx.xx@abcd.ch - Bounces=2
[2020.09.24] 16:31:44.594 risks: Unsubscribed xx.Ilia@xyz.com - Bounces=2
[2020.09.24] 16:31:44.594 risks: Unsubscribed xy.xy@defg.ru - Bounces=2
[2020.09.24] 16:34:47.437 risks: Unsubscribed xxx@pqrst.ru - Bounces=2

So now I'm going to try to track down why it bounced.

EDIT: Is there a way to change the bounces before removal threshold for all existing domains ? I can't where the default threshold is configured and where to apply it globally.
I would like to raise it a bit for troubleshooting purposes.
Sébastien Riccio
System & Network Admin

0
Employee Replied
Employee Post
Unfortunately, there is no way currently to propagate that particular setting to all domains. I noted on the bug task that the mailing list name is not included with the unsubscribed line and that that setting cannot be propagated.  I also noted the other remarks from your previous comment.
4
echoDreamz Replied
Would be great if this was easily seen by users, not having to contact us to go through debug logs etc. An area in the maillist section that shows users that were removed, why with the date/time.
0
Seph Parshall Replied
I have subscribers being removed by the server for bounces BUT before they reach the automatic bounce removal threshold which I set to 5. Five bounces before being automatically removed from list(s).
v7544
1
Sébastien Riccio Replied
Hello,

I want to update this thread to let you know that in our case we were able to track the the reason for the removal and it was were real bounces generated from our outgoing gateway, because some of the mails were considered spam by rspamd.
This because it thinks the sender/reply-to/enveloppe-from is spoofed and it wasn't detecting the mail was from a mailing list.
We were able to mitigate this on our outgoing gateway and SmarterMail was not in cause for this issue.

Still I agree with the others that there is room for improvement for the mailing list owner to be able to track down these issues themselves, with for example a removal log in their mailing list admin panel, without needing our assistance.

Kind regards
Sébastien Riccio
System & Network Admin

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J Lee Replied
It would also be nice that when unsubscribed that the email remains in the database as unsubscribed so no one in the future tries to re-add the email address that wanted to be removed.

J. Sebastian Lee Service2Client LLC 6333 E Mockingbird Ste 147 Dallas, TX 75214 - 877.251.3273

0
J Lee Replied
Another item. It does not appear that there is a #SubscribeLink# command. It would be nice if you could add a Signup link to your email footer.

Ok I do see how to create a Subscribe link, some think like this  
mailto:stServ@domain.com?subject=SUBSCRIBE TAXBULLETINLIST&body=SUBSCRIBE TAXBULLETINLIST

J. Sebastian Lee Service2Client LLC 6333 E Mockingbird Ste 147 Dallas, TX 75214 - 877.251.3273

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Ron Raley Replied
We have dealt with angry customers and "bounces before removal" several times in the past.  It really is a pain in the ***.

We wish SmarterTools would default this setting to 0 (disable).

However, 0 does not disable.  You technically can't disable.  You have to set it to 65,000 or some other astronomical integer that you hope is never reached.

Ron
1
Zach Sylvester Replied
Employee Post
Hey Guys, 

There was a bug in 8083 and possibly older versions where if you made a change on the domain it would revert the bounces before removal to the default value. This has been fixed in 8097 Mar 3 2022. 
I will go ahead and submit a feature request to be able to disable the bounces before removal setting. 

Have a great rest of your week. 

Kind Regards, 


Zach Sylvester
Technical Support Specialist
SmarterTools Inc.
(877) 357-6278
www.smartertools.com
1
Ron Raley Replied
Zach, this would be fantastic to not have to worry about anymore. Sometimes customers are livid when their recipients drop.

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